Witness Deposition – Mathew Smales – 8 Oct 1686

Document Type: Witness Deposition
Date: 8 Oct 1686
Correspondent: Mathew Smales
Archive Source: TNA E134 2Jas2 Mich 42
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Mathew Smales of Gilling in the county of Yorks Gentleman aged forty four years or thereabouts the <?> sworne & examined Saith as followeth

1.To the first Interrogatory Said Depont. Saith That he knows all the parties in this Interrogatory in this case & the two Parishes of Stanhope & Wolsingham &  have soe known them for several years last past

2.To the second Interrogatory this Depont. saith That the afo[re]m[entioned] Mr Humphrey Wharton by Grant from John late Lord B[isho]pp of Durham is seized of the office of Moor Maisters & Lead Mines in the two p[ar]ishes of Stanhope & Wolsingham <.. in … for> the terme of three lives under the Rent of one hundred & fifty pounds p[er] Anno <&> Lott oar or Ninth part payable at four quarterly paym[en]ts.  This Depont. saith that he hath often times seen the Said <deed or Grant under> the Episcopall <Seal> of Durham <& hath tendered and take Lord B[isho]pps <Attorney> that  <..ti.. ..> possession & …… of the Said Mynes <to the ……. his Attorney sayeth> upon <his .. …...en> or <for Consideration> that he <ei.de. ..> possession according to the Undermentioned <tyth of …. ……. >

3.To the third Interrogatory this Depont. saith he hath heard and beleives that the now Compl[ainan]t <….. … .. … …………. ……. .. did> Demise & grant unto Barbara Sanderson severall Mynes lying within the p[ar]ish of Stanhope by <….. …nin   ..  Sudrie en. Sanderson some un..  p.son or persons claiming under the Title ….. ………… sev[er]all> Mynes <entirely to> William Blackett Barronet <or ..> Sr William Blackett sonn of the said Sr William to be within the said <… .. …last pu.. …. …… .. enjoy the said> Mynes <.. sevall> great quantities of <Lead were wrought … Mynes in the  …… the Mynes … & …. …. … & Groverake side ….> [whole line obscured or possibly struck through] believe that the said Mynes soe wrought were antiently wrought by former Moor Maisters under the Defend[an]ts <…….. & ……. ……> believe the sume for that he this deponent above twenty years since had in his custody for severall years an antient Moormaisters booke or Register of the Mynes wrought under the moormaister his Title in the reign of Queen Elizabeth <……. ….. il [2?] yeares …. Y…. M..> in the <Billing Grove rake> other mines wrought under the said Barbara Sanderson’s <Title … ……….. … …. …..  the said ……..> Title. And this depon[en]t doth believe that the said <…… …… the said lease  .. yearly …. The granting soe ….. rent E…… ….. ……….. ……. Defend[an]t ………. ……. … to wo…… …. Lead Mines the said Mines & …….. re…….. …….. ….. …. …… ……..  ……….  Any Mines wrought or pretended to …… …. … …. …. …. … it the. …..  ……. ……. ….  the said> Barbara Sanderson or her Assigns

4. To the fourth Interrogatory this Dep[on]ent hath heard <……..> aswell under ye Said John late Lord <B[isho]>pp of Durham was <………………..> Majestie in the time of the vacancy was <… ……. …….> was Lott oar as sixty <……. ……. …….. ……> Severall persons <……..ted the said …….. fr… …….. ..pp as ……. The ……… ………… ………> Defendt. <……. > obtained the <S……der for the Rent of Sixty pounds <Any And this deponent hath heard …….. tyme …… ……. payment of ……..> Of ye Said Rents aswell in the <Said Bishopps ……. as in the time of thevacancy.>

5. To the fifth Interrogatory this Depont. Saith that he he hath heard and been credibly informed that the said <….> Lord Marquesse of Winchester on his behalf did make an Agreement with the Compl[ainan]t <……………> time & for the sume in this Interrogatory mentioned <particulars  …. .is the n.. exem..ind .. beleive the Said <…………..> Said Defendt. (within one dayes time after the <said> agreement was made acquainted this depon[en]t  … ……. Agreement and …d..f.d that this depon[en]t ..ing this ….. that ……… did about ……ing the ……. His ……. & that ………. Purfact..> of the Said Agreement And this Depont. further Saith that  Mr <A……. as yet ………> of Stanhope and <O……….> to the Compl[ainan]t at the <time of the Said Agreement of …… in the hearing of this Depont.say> that the Said Lord Bpp now Compl[ainan]t <..d..ra.ly against the said Agreement> told the Said Mr Turner that he made a bargaine with the Defendt. for the Lott oar and that he was well pleased with the Said bargaine and should be at friendship with the Said Defendt. for he did not love trouble and Suits

7 To the seaventh Interrogatory this Depont. Saith That Robert Dormer Esqr. Attorney General in the Compl[ainan]t <did> fyle an Information against the Defendt. in the Chancery of Durham for the Lott oar for the time in this Interrogatory mentioned And Saith that in the Month of September one thousand Six hundred Seaventy & Nine it was amongst other things that the Compl[ainan]t’s Offficers Should have liberty to take Account at the Mines of the quantity of oar gott soe that Such Officers hindered not the working the Said Mines And it was likewise <Decreed> that the <oar> should go to account with the Compl[ainan]t before the Deputy Regester for the Ninth Lott for the time in this Interrogatory mentioned And Saith the Said Deputy Regester made his Report to which the Defendt. filed  <.. reprimus> which was heard and argued before the Compl[ainan]t’s Chancellor in Grays Inn London in the Month of December one thousand Six hundred eighty & four and great uncertainty appearing touching the granting and value of the Leases and Ninth Lott It was thereupon referred to a Tryall at law upon a feigned issue to try the Quantities and Value of the Lead oar gott in the Defendt.s Mines in the Said time which Tryall being had in the court of <…ad> at Durham the Said Compl[ainan]t obtained a verdict for two hundred and ten pounds being the full value of the Ninth Lott digged and gotten out of the Defendt.s Mines  in question from the twentieth of November one thousand six hundred Seaventy and four to the twelfth of February one thousand Six hundred Seaventy & six which verdict was <affirmed> and confirmed by the Said Lordshipps Chancellors And this Depont. Saith that in pursuance thereof this <…..> [about four words lost in document fold] of the Defendt. did on or about the third day of February last past <…………..> Delavale Esqr., the said Sume of Two hundred and ten pounds Decreed as aforesaid for the use and by the <ord.r> Of the Said Compl[ainan]t for which said Sume the Said <Mr> Delavale gave this Depont. an Acquittante now produced to this Depont. at the time of his Examination

8. To the eighth Interrogatory this Depont. Saith that the Defendt.s Lead Mines or the greatest part of them ly att <……> twelve and ten miles of his Smelt Mills And Saith that the Defendt. or his Agents by his order have Since this Said twelfth of February one thousand Six hundred  Seaventy and Six, brought great quantities of Lead oar out of the Lead Mines lying in severall Counties Lordshipps and liberties not belonging to the B[isho]pp of Durham all which Said bought oar was brought to some of the Defendt.s  Smelt Mills as this Depont. beleives and there smelted with his owne oar And saith that buying of oars in several Liberties to smelt with this Defendt.s owne ore is a meanes to make the Defendt.s owne ore run and Smelt the better & produce greater quantities of Lead and Saith that is usuall for the owners of Lead Mines and Mills to buy oar from severall places and Smelt the Same with their owne ore for the reasons aforesaid  And this Depont. is the better induced soe to depose for that he hath been present att severall reckonings and seen the <tallies for> Such bought ore upon Such reckonings <stock> & broken

9. To the Nineth Interrogatory this Depont. saith That he hath very often <since> the said twelfth of February Six hundred Seaventy & six been at the Defendt.s Mines in the p<ari>sh of Stanhope (there having been noe <Lead> Gott in the parish of Wolsingham since the said twelfth of February one thousand six hundred Seaventy six asThis Deponant beleives) And saith the value or price of the said ore there gott is <according to the produce …..> brought to the Defendt.’s Mills gott in his Said Mines worth Sixteen Shillings p[er] bing the usuall weight of the Defendt.s owne ore being fourteen stone to a horse and four horse to a bing Load due Saith that the Defendt. hath bought oar at severall Mines in the said parish of Stanhope and elsewhere which did not belong to the B[isho]pp of Durham att about twenty three Shillings p[er] bing which lys soe neer some of the said Smelt Mills that the same may be carried att four pence or five pence p[er] horse when much of his owne oare cost <twelve> pence and fourteen pence p[er] horse for carriage soe that the Defendt.s oar to the best of this Depont.s Judgement considering the greater charge in carriage and badnesse of much of his said oar was not of <sufficient [scratched out, with indecipherable superscript]> value of the said Mines then twenty Shillings p[er] bing And saith that in the year one thousand seaventy eight the Compl[ainan]t by his lease to Barbara Sanderson did reserve the Nineth Lott for the ore gotten in theMines granted within the said parish of Stanhope or twenty Shillings p[er] bing in lew thereof which this Depont. believes then was and hath since been the value of the Defendt.s ore p[er] bing gott in the said parish of Stanhope which said Lease menc.ons [ie. mentions] the said twenty Shillings p[er] bing to be the then price & rate of Lead ore And saith That a copy of the said Lease now produced to this Depont.is a true Coppy thereof Examined in the B[isho]pp of Durham his Auditors Office there

10 To the tenth Interrogatory this Depont. saith That great quantities of old heapes of old waist mixed with Oar Sparr Rubbish and Vaine Soyle were lying and Still are at or neer several of the Defendt.s Mines in Stanhope parish gott and digged before the Said twelfth of February one thousand six hundred seaventy and six out of which this Depont. believes there yearely is and for several years yet to come there may bee great quantities washed and sent to the Defendt.s Smelt Mills And Saith that upon the said twelfth of February one thousand Six hundred Seaventy & six there was likewise considerable quantities of oare lying washed and unwashed att several of the Defendt.s Mines which were afterwards brought to some of the Defendt.s Smelt Mills but what was the certaine quantities thereof this Depont. cannot depose. And this Depont. believes there was mixing of the oar digged and gotten since the twelfth of February one thousand Six hundred seaventy and six with what was gott before soe that the Compl[ainan]ts Officers might have easily distinguished the oar gott from the said twelfth of February one thousand Six hundred seaventy and six from what was gott before the said twelfth of February one thousand six hundred seaventy and six

11. To the eleaventh Interrogatory this Deponant Saith That for twenty years last past & upwards the Defendt. hath reckoned with the Myners and Oar carryers by Tallys and paid according to the Agreem[en]t of the Swatch and Tallys att such time of reckoning after compairing of which the said Stocks and Swatches were broken And this Depont. believes the said way of reckoning by Tallys the best way to keep Account between the said Myners and oar carryers the said persons being generally illiterate. And Saith that it is usuall in other Lord[shi]pps and liberties to keep and take account by Tallys as aforesaid And this Depont. hath been informed by Antient Workeman that by of Tallys they used to account as aforesaid

13 To the thirteenth Interrogatory this Depont. saith that the Compl[ainan]t’s Agents hath not to this Depont.s knowledge taken any Account att the Mines but kept Officers to take Account of the horses that went on the roades or high wayes where severall mens oare were carried which were digged and gotten out of Mines lying in severall counties Lord[shi]pps and Liberties And the said Officers as this Depont was informed by one Ralph Dawkin who was imployed to take such account that he had directions to take Account of all horses that went on the said roades or highway without enquiring from where the said oar came or to what  Mills the Same was carried and that he tooke such Account inn the towne of Frosterly beung aboute three Miles distance from any of the Said Defendt.s Smelt Mills

14. To the fourteenth Interrogatory this Depont. saith that the Defendt. Did order his Agent or Overseer Of his Mines to set out the Lott oar Quarterly or within forty days after And this Deponant hath been present when the Same was sett out at Some of the Quarter dayes or within forty dayes after and hath seen a considerable quantity of oar lying in Westenhope near some of the Defendt.s Mines within the Said parish of Stanhope sett out as aforesaid but the certaine quantity he soe see sett out or for what perticuler quarter days the Same was Soe sett out this Depont. doth not remember

15 To the fifteenth Interrogatory this Deponent saith That he this Depont. by the Defendt.s order hath paid Several considerable sumes of money for the use of the Compl[ainan]t to Mr Kirkby the Compl[ainan]t’s Receivor and to other of the Compl[ainan]t’s Officers and by the Compl[ainan]t’s order as well for the said rent of one hundred and fifty pounds - - - as alsoe upon account of the Lott oar but the certaine sumes soe paid this Depont. doth not remember but saith that the two hundred and ten pounds paid to Mr Delavale in the month of February last was the last sume he this Depont. paid though he verily believes the Defendt. Hath paid Above three hundred pounds more to the said Compl[ainan]t upon the Accounts aforesaid since the Said month Of February last

17 To the Seaventeenth Interrogoatory this Depont. saith that he hath heard  and verily believes that the Defendt.s predecessors Moormaisters have time out of minde paid the tenth part of all Lead oar gotten to the parson of Stanhope And that the said Lord B[ish]opp or his Farmers had not interest in the Said Tenth part but onely to a Nineth part the whole being divided into Tenn parts and that the Lott oar was due out of the nine parts solely Vizt a full Nineth part soe that the Lott & Tith are of equall quantity and value 

18 To the eighteenth Interrogatory this Deponant Saith That the value of the Lott and Tyth is according to the price and value of Lead and quantity of oar digged and gotten and riseth and falleth accordingly for he hath known the Defendt. pay one hundred and twenty pounds p[er] Annum to Doctor Turnerr for the Said Tyth oar for all the time he continued as Rector of Stanhope for severall years and saith that he dyed about the Month of Aprill one thousand Six hundred eighty and four and hath heard that the said Defendt. hath since taken the said Tyth oar of Mr Hartwell who succeeded the said Doctor Turner in the Said Rectory of Stanhope aforesaid of one hundred and Ten pounds p[er] Annum And the Defendt. hath a Lease of the said Lott oar from the Said Mr Hartwell for several years at one hundred and ten pounds p[er] Annum this Depont. being better able soe to depose for that he see the Defendt Lease a Counter part of the said Lease to Mr Thomas Westgarth for the use of the said Mr Hartwell

21 To the one and twentieth Interrogatory this Depont saith That the Defendt. for these Tenn years last past hath smelted att some of his Smelt Mills great quantities of Leadoar which belonged unto Owners of several Lead Mines who paid the said Defend. twenty Nine Shillings thirty Shillings and sometimes more for Smelting there said Lead p[er] fother which said oar soe brought to his said Smelt Mill did not at all belong The Defendt. nor was gott out of any of his Lead Mines neither had the Defendt. any interest in the Lead soe Smelted onely payment for Smelting as aforesaid And saith itt is usuall for owners of Lead Mills to Smelt oar for any person that brings the same to their said Mills to smelt att thirty thirty five or forty shillings

per Fother								Matt Smales
Witness on behalf of Humphrey Wharton in answer to Wharton's interrogatories. See 8 Oct 1686 'Questions to witnesses' Nathaniel Crewe, interrogatories, and notes given there for background to the case. The first few answers suffer from difficulty in reading the original document but are given anyway for the phrases which can be transcribed.

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The Dukesfield Smelters and Carriers Project aimed to celebrate and discover the heritage of the Dukesfield Arches & lead carriers' routes between Blaydon and the lead mines of Allendale and Weardale. A two year community project, it was led by the Friends of the North Pennines in partnership with Hexhamshire and Slaley Parish Councils and the active support of Allendale Estates. It was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund and the generous support of other sponsors. Friends of the North Pennines: Charity No:1137467